Dr. Noah Charney  0:05 
Hello, welcome and dobrodošli to Feel Slovenia the Podcast. In each episode, we will explore what I have called the world's best country, meeting locals travelling, eating and getting to know the very best of Slovenia. This podcast is written and hosted by me, Dr. Noah Charney and is brought to you by the Slovenian Tourist Board. In this episode I spoke to Mike and Anne Howard. They are known as HoneyTrek and have spent the past decade on their honeymoon coring planet Earth, with Slovenia as a favourite spot.

When Americans Mike and Ann Howard set off on their honeymoon back on January 22 2012, they thought they'd spend a year travelling the globe. 10 years later and counting, they're still on the same honeymoon. They just kept on travelling and doing it the right way. They're focused on sustainable travel, destinations and modes of transport. Slow travel overland with as few flights as possible to environmentally conscious consumption. There are vegans who avoid plastic and drink only UV light treated tap water, never bottled. They've lived out of a backpack for more than a decade. With their only home base a camper van parked in the US named Buddy. Along the way, they managed to shift their endless vacation into a profession and lifestyle. They write for magazines run a popular blog, blog and social media platform and collaborate with tourism boards the world over. They've also published a pair of books. Comfortably Wild is an elegant coffee table book about glamping and ultimate journeys for two which was a best seller. They've been featured in major media from National Geographic to Travel & Leisure. And they even do travel and glamping consulting for companies and individuals. One of their favourite destinations, and one they're eager to return to is Slovenia.

So how do you pack for a decade long journey? What's the relationship secret of a couple who spend 24 hours a day together? Seven days a week for more than 600 weeks running? Keep listening to find out.

So where am I catching you both let's start that you have a very atmospheric looking backdrop. Where are you now?

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek  2:23 
We are in a 17th century matched roof cottage, just outside of the Cotswolds and Winslow England.

Dr. Noah Charney  2:32 
Okay, and okay, let's let's go back to the beginning for starters, and then we'll catch up with your current location. So where did you two first meet and what was your travel approach or lifestyle prior to meeting?

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek  2:48 
We met playing volleyball outside of New York City so we were paired together as like equal skilled players nothing not like a blind date or anything but became friends and fell into a whole relationship and he actually was doing ski house and I was like connect now even though he was sort of courting me and I was playing hard to get once we sort of went into this whole sort of summers of adventure I wanted to keep it going through the year and then years later we were married in the snow in Vermont.

I would say like our lives were fairly traditional in quotes, we both a nine to nine jobs in New York City, I was doing I ran a social network and did like marketing and advertising and and was an editor writer in the interior design space, so we both does that in New York City. Our travel styles were also fairly pedestrian, one international trip a year, one domestic trip to see family usually.

Most Americans are notorious for having these short vacation time. So we just go all out, you know, 10 days let's see as many as we can. We've always had a common love for adventure and discovering other cultures. We certainly didn't think we'd be doing this, but yeah, when the time for our honeymoon came and we were listing out all the places we wanted to go in the world, experiences we want to have in our lives, like we gotta get to these, so we better get moving and we've got our health, we have this American attitude If Not Now When, let's go for it. Let's see all the places we want to see. So it was going to be a year long honeymoon around the world, which seemed like a long time and pretty ambitious. You know, as we got going we were like 'this is even more incredibly affordable than we thought'. Can we make this a lifestyle? And now we're going on to ten, no wait, more, eleven years.

Dr. Noah Charney  4:38  
This is so cool. But one of the things that I was gonna ask about is: how you deal with it? You say it's more affordable than you thought. What are the logistics and sort of budget constraints or a masterplan? Because I love the idea of doing this, but my first thought is like hotels every night is going to be too cost prohibitive. And dirty.

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek  4:56  
I mean like hotels every night would be cost prohibitive in travelling. I think when most people look at our lifestyle, and they extrapolate out what a normal vacation costs them, and they think, wow, you guys do this 365 days a year, there must be some kind of catch here, there's no way you could be spending what I spent on a vacation. Obviously, life is different for us, maybe it's a little slower. Sometimes it's a little faster. But there's all sorts of crazy hacks. And through this 17th century, you know, patch through house, we're here in the Cotswolds. We're gonna live here, we just came to London for a big travel conference called WTM. And we decided to stay for an extra three weeks. So we reached out to a homeowner through a hosting site that we're members up and connected up. And the day after the conference, we drove up here, they flew to St. John in the Caribbean, and we're gonna watch this house for free for three weeks and catch up on work and do some custom settings. 

What a wonderful way to get local, then instantly you have neighbours, who immediately care about you know, they know the dog, you kind of have an instant circle. And to get to slow travel has been sort of the secret to success really is that we don't try and see and do everything everywhere all the time. You have to kind of slow down go the local way. And it's much more sustainable when you don't attend to just be running around taking off popular signups.

Dr. Noah Charney  4:38  
So how organised was the first year of honeymoon travel as opposed to subsequent years, and then how much of that was just deciding as you go and be more organic?

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek 6:30
Whoever gives you any understanding of how we're organised the first couple of years of HoneyTrek where: we flew from New York City to Brazil. And we did not even have our first night's reservation until the tarmac at JFK, and I'm using our last bit of Wi Fi on Airbnb to look up a little, you know, homestay when we landed, so it's been pretty free-flowing. And you know, we do have tent poles throughout the year, these different travel conferences, or we do partnerships with tourism boards. So we've got different tent poles throughout the year, but a lot of it is pretty flexible, kind of free flowing, which is great, because then you get tips from locals. And if you're not pre-planned into something, you know, you can you can pivot you can choose your way and people always get scared. And they think like, why don't you know, you're gonna get lodging you know, in the next place. Like, I'd be so nervous. I want a reservation. And I can say we've been doing this this January 27. Just coming January 22, will be 11 years of full time travel or 1000 days or the first weekend. 

Yeah. And, and we have not had a house or an apartment a single day aside from these little houses that we do sometimes to slow down. And we have never been locked out and told that there's not a room. You know, like we've showed up at Edinburgh for the largest Fringe Festival in the world. The day it started without a reservation. The people at the airport were laughing at us, hotels were like 'Ha we've been booked for two years for this event'. We rolled downtown, we found a little hospital on the Royal Mile on the Royal Mile and it was like 20 bucks a night you know, and we were in Ahimsa like, so and that's it, like we experiences for the most part of August, you know, bringing it a brunch festival, we we've prioritised experiences, and that it's something that's really important, it's something truly unique. Well, certainly that's worth planning out. 

And we also kind of because it's our honeymoon and, and we realise that, you know, rise by satellite, we like to go super local, but you also should try the finest things in each place to to get the full perspective. So we've reviewed over 250 hotels around the world from a high end, boutique farmstays to thought server tills, and really fell in love with glamping, which you know, glamorous camping, as it were, which we did a number of wonderful ones in Slovenia, because we love that land connected with nature with a bit of comfort and luxury of a finer hotel. So it's all about that next.

Dr. Noah Charney  8:59  
So, you have a book on glamping, if I'm correct. Tell me about the first glamping experience us you had that made you fall in love with it. And then also talk about where you were in Slovenia.

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek  9:10  
Our book is called Comfortably Wild. The best glamping destinations in North America. It's actually the first and only book written about glamping in North America. So we're pretty proud about that. And sort of the history or origins and benefits of glamping, on a global scale too. And we kind of got turned on to glamping in 2012. So, the first year of our trip we were down in Patagonia, just outside of the Fitzroy and there's a place called ecocamp Patagonia with these little green domes with their skin rugs and serving pisco sours at night and luxury but still out in nature with a view of the Fitzroy tour it turns though fine, and we were just like wow, this connection to nature was still raw and you're still doing big. We're doing like six eight hour trips during the day but then coming back to a little bit of luxury and more than a glass of wine like savouring the best of the outdoors, like with taking out all sort of the worry and the schlep of what could be camping and just getting to savour these beautiful places and the people that you've come with. 

And then when it comes to Slovenia, we started reading about this beautiful, sustainable country. And so forward thinking in their design to their sourcing, we certainly had to try so the first one we did was a Farmer's Day, which I love that I think any one of their travels, stay in a local home on farm at some point, because it really is the best window into a culture. Andwe stayed at the place called Firbas in the far northeast in the Štajerska region, if I'm saying that right. And it wasn't the most charming place, we save as little a frame and that surrounded by, you know, apple orchards. And in the morning, he did this incredible farm table breakfast over the fire with this homemade jams, as well as mushrooms and more vegan. So he was like, took great care of us, he sauteed vegetables, and yeah, and then we also went to Theodosius Forest Village, which is near closer to Vipava Valley. And it was really unique so that it was actually a sort of mirror tube. So when you're walking towards your structure there, the forest is reflecting back at you. So it's sort of it's like an infinite loop of trees. It was super cool. And then looked over the valley and also more vineyards. So it's such a great way to say it's really well.

Dr. Noah Charney  11:34  
I'm always curious to ask people how they first learned about Slovenia, because people who've come usually feel like it's some sort of hidden treasure that surprises them, or that they didn't know much about. What was your first recognition of the country and sensitive before you even arrived? And then how did that change? Once you had visited it?

Mike & Anne, HoneyTrek  11:53  
I think we first heard about it in like 2017 or 18. I think you guys won some kind of green award,  and came on our radar because we've been trying to focus on more sustainability and push our audience and push ourselves to like really think about the footprint we leave as travellers. And like I was saying before, we'd love to travel slow, like we didn't fly to Slovenia, and we didn't leave on an aeroplane it was all overland getting there, from Bosnia, and then and then we went on to Trieste and on to Italy. So, we were trying to incorporate more sustainable travel into our storytelling and into our own ethos. And the you guys came on our radar, and we're actually doing a campaign, and a personal goal, to find the most romantic and sustainable destinations in the world. So find where those intersect, right? Because people often think, okay, romance luxury, well, it's either hard to be sustainable, or it's my time this flash out is my honeymoon. It's my big anniversary trip. I can worry about sustainability at home and recycle. But I'm going on a trip. So I'm going to eat at the buffet and order a pineapple in the middle of winter in Norway. I'm going to do these things because it's my vacation or whatever. So we're trying to more just help people see that there is a true intersection and romance can be sustainable and even more romantic and fun. And that unique side of it. Just another lot of people talk about Slovenia, so we're like, we've got to go.

And the things that we did have to go speak we roll with a pretty global group of people. There's plenty of friends around the world. And people who are mountain lovers certainly like wow, like the Julian outside of Italia. Like this is an incredible place because then you have this slice of the sea. And then incredible wine culture. And then also as a fun fact, my surrogate Grandpa is he was smoking. So he was grew up in a sharing stories of home. So there was always an industry there as well.

Unknown Speaker  13:49  
What's your game plan when you're about to hit a new country that you haven't been to? What do you like to do to research and in preparation before you actually arrive?

Unknown Speaker  13:58  
We have pretty much almost zero pants? Yes. But for the most part, yes. Kind of like what we're always kind of looking for steam. So we always want to try glamping in that place. You know, what are some ways to get local? What are some big adventures we can have. So if you're having at least one fabulous culinary experience, because it's really about seeing the breadth and diversity of any given location. I mean, it's true if even if you we had all the money in the world, we could stay at only five star hotels or we had no money and we were only backpacking, we really try and challenge people to try a bit of the high and the low to get that glide sort of wider perspective.

Unknown Speaker  14:34  
Can you walk me through your luggage? I'm so curious, like, you don't have to go into too much detail. But what's the sort of things you pack when you have no idea when you're going to be back to like the headquarters where all your extra stuff is and is it backpacking? Or do you actually have like really luggage?

Unknown Speaker  14:51  
Really well it is just we gave up really long rule of chiasmus because you have to be nimble right trying to carry on If we always have something to stay warm and something to go swimming in, you have to be prepared for everything. And there are ways to do which is layering, but you don't actually need such bulky stuff. I only want to going on this impromptu trip to Norway to Northern Lights, well, we went to the local Goodwill and Montefalco Jeff, if you really you can get it and you can even find it use. So

Unknown Speaker  15:22  
for jewellery footprint, there are bags, we kind of have these bags that can class up a little bit if you're going to a nice hotel and you're not looking like you're rolling in with a 65 litre backpack with you know, and like, you know, reusable spoons hanging off this guy. And so it's got what it is that pack straps for when you're hopping on trains or walking down cobblestone roads, so we can throw in the backpack or you know, the tuck away and it turns into normal suitcase. So and they both fit in, in a carry on early. Yeah. And that was

Unknown Speaker  15:50  
only fit, they fit in our campers, that is there's really no base, the closest to basically have is one on wheels. It's 1985, Toyota Sunrider, and a buddy and he is our North America base, but he moves almost every tech. So when we kind of think forward like okay, what is the next year but we need to be up to let's push them a little farther west and then we'll fly to Slovenia or you know, work where we're going. So

Unknown Speaker  16:15  
and I've got one more fun piece of luggage before we say maybe buddy maybe one of our next steps is that is doing a European government trip, we can discuss that when we talk about next steps. What are the must pack that we will never leave home without and we implore all tourists to do something similar is we have this little thing called the stereo pen, which is basically a UV light that you dip in your Nalgene or whatever water bottle you have, and some of the water bottles even have a blue light on top that will give UV to your bottle. And we literally have not had a single disposable bottle of plastic water since March of 2012. So we the first catch we went to was Brazil, that's where we decided to try it for a month. And we've now been to 70 countries without consuming a single bottle of water. And we've never been sick a single time for water we drink out of the tap, obviously in Slovenia and your water is amazing. But we've done it in Cambodia and Kenya and Malawi. In India, we are drinking out of the tap and then we shock it with this thing. So I would definitely implore all the listeners to pick one up there like 50 bucks or one of these either stereo pens or one of the water bottles with UV light because he knew

Unknown Speaker  17:27  
accordingly like you. It's the thing. Keeping up your surface sustainable ethos while you travel is a little bit of preparation. We also travel with a risk we call them a sport Guide, which is fork, spoon knife all together just so you have your own cutlery. So if someone offers it to you or straw like no, I'm good. You just have to kind of think a step ahead before like, plastic thing is already in the bag. Now I keep coming back. So it's one step ahead of the game. I bring your own bottle, Bring your reusable tote bag, that kind of thing that would prevent either the waste cycle from

Unknown Speaker  17:58  
slipping it was super good about that. I'd say like all the takeaway shops, either it would be optional, and you'd have to request it or they'd be Pam mu or maybe even like real cutlery that you'd get back after your meals.

Unknown Speaker  18:09  
And then your recycling is just like world class. I mean, it tracks the dance when people don't recycle and your recycling has such a level of precision. It's

Unknown Speaker  18:18  
all through them. Liana was like composting, recycling glass trash, like all different things.

Unknown Speaker  18:24  
Very few Homer. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  18:26  
So are we talking you're travelling with like two pairs of trousers and like three shirts for this kind of level? Or is it a little bit broader than that?

Unknown Speaker  18:35  
They're broader than that. You know, because we haven't been reviewing a fancy hotel but Yeah, nobody more moved three pairs of trousers. Yeah, a

Unknown Speaker  18:42  
couple of you know, a couple pair of shoes. I mean, if it's

Unknown Speaker  18:46  
kind of a hat addiction, this is where we need to work on this. He's like, broke like deeper and deeper with his hat. You know, you make 10 as the hamper. I'm like, Oh my God, you take on you give one away. That's his biggest

Unknown Speaker  18:58  
device then he's doing fine. That's exactly and what about for photography? Because you're taking pictures as you go? Do you use special equipment? Or do you just have a really good phone camera?

Unknown Speaker  19:09  
You're just tucked away down? But yes, we know when we're in the states we always have a drone. Abroad SLR is still really important. I have a really good camera but it is amazing what you can do with the phone these days. So it's a hybrid.

Unknown Speaker  19:21  
I'm curious if there was a touch point at which you turned this into something that was professional and also sustainable long term because you were doing collaborations or or getting commissions What was that moment where it shifted from this is our honeymoon holiday we'll see how it goes to this could be something sustainable because it's also a profession for us.

Unknown Speaker  19:44  
I think we're motivated because we were like this is the most incredible learning experience bonding experience are we're you know, having this incredible global community like there's a there was such a driver to be like let's make this work. Part of it was learning to live simply we It used to be New Yorkers who went out to fancy dinners and would find new clothes and you're focusing on stuff like saving for a car or a bigger house or to go on one trip. Yeah. And we're like, none of that matters, right, let's just streamline to what's important. And it is, you know, human connection, unforgettable life experiences. So we learned to live simply and and just prioritise our finances. And then and while we were doing that, you know, money started to roll in, in the sense that we learned to live more simply and spend less, but then we were picking up more writing gifts. And then ultimately, we were National Geographic asked us to write the first book about couples adventure travel, we're like, okay, like, I think this is real.

Unknown Speaker  20:38  
And is there a separate tactic for developing your travel interested audience on social media? Or did that come organically as people word of mouth started to hear about what you were doing?

Unknown Speaker  20:49  
I mean, I ran a social network for 11 years, started back in back in college. And so I had some experience of building a community and like storytelling online, we definitely both share in social media, and, you know, creating videos, and I'll give and a lot of props on on taking us in that direction, because video is definitely not my strong suit. I'm more of a photographer, and I, you know, I have the gift of gab, but it's, you know, it's very unique thing, the way social storytelling and it's evolved, right, like how much it's evolved and how important it's become to were in the beginning of honey Trek's existence, we're pretty much only blogs and writing articles for tourism boards or other partners in the travel space. And now it's completely almost completely shifted to work. We do lots of campaigns that are only social, that don't even have either a blog component or any kind of article. It's all social. And to us, it's, it's really rewarding. And especially I would say, like, as much as people like focus on on Instagram, and we do have a pretty serious Instagram audience and we connect with them there. The thing about Facebook that as much as people want to write it off, we feel like the connections there are a little bit deeper, longer lasting, you can share links with each other. You can share photos, we have threads going on on Facebook that were started three years ago for a campaign with Nebraska

Unknown Speaker  22:14  
or you know, our Hernan or Masai warrior friend who we met in 2012. That's his main means of communication is Facebook. So

Unknown Speaker  22:22  
he's still messaging back. So there's a really good connections. And it also answers the question of people worrying, like, how do you stay connected? Like, don't you feel like you miss this sense of community, your family, your friends, I would say we're better friends with a lot of our friends from home and we see them more either on Zoom or you're chatting with them on being on WhatsApp than we did when we were living in New York City. 20 blocks from each other. And you know, you get together once a month. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
it's amazing. I used to take that for granted when you get your friend or you know, even three miles away, like, Oh, we're three months, we haven't seen each other. But when we come back to you know, Los Angeles, I'm from or north New York, where we used to live or it's really intentional, like we spend true quality time we'll do slumber parties, little friends like and really have that like sit down catch up versus like, I'll catch you for a coffee when I see it. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  23:12  
do you have any tips for couples travelling together because you must be not only best friends, but you have to enjoy each other's company, like without any breaks whatsoever. So any, any tips for couples who travelled together and can learn something about how to get along as well as

Unknown Speaker  23:28  
you to do? Well, I will give a tip to couples because a lot of people look at what we do and they almost right off the chance that they can do it because they assume we're somehow like super special or never fight or just have this like magical travel the world and you know, get paid like you know, they assume that everything just kind of falls on our on our platter and that it's just this perfect thing. And I would say you don't have to be don't feel like because people say like I could punch travel so long with my partner spouse, like we would just give each other's neck. And I would say travel kind of equalises that like it removes seven stress, it's still there, you still do have little tips and stuff. And as we do, we're like we're kind of a pretty normal couple. But travel just like Don't, don't write off a big trip. Like definitely try and get it on your radar at some point. And at least do a small one like and small one. I mean, like two three months together that's like unplanned you know, pick a country or pick a couple of countries either in Central Europe or Central America, depending what continent and just go travel together slowly trying to you know, do something different than this will be booked cruise or you know, where everything's totally farmed out. And you'll learn a lot about each other and you'll see the world differently because when you travel slowly without reservations and you're open to pivot, where the locals tell you if they almost look at you differently, you look at them differently. It's like a much different interaction. You're seeing the same sights as the tourist who's only there for two weeks, but you're gonna see it in such a different light And I think it's just a really beautiful thing that couples should all couples should do together.

Unknown Speaker  25:03  
And when you spend this much time together, it's amazing how when you do separate and being intentional, like, I just need to take a walk right now how that can totally reset everything, or that like, we'll miss each other, like go to the grocery store, because we're together there's so much that when we are apart, you've actually appreciate the other ones absence. So it's a it's a unique thing, but yeah, we're lucky to have each other that we do work really well and

Unknown Speaker  25:28  
is the plan for honeymoon to go indefinitely into the future many decades? Sramana All right, I mean, why exactly?

Unknown Speaker  25:37  
I mean, now it's a life right? It's become our life it's not just a lifestyle it's certainly not a trip. It is still a honeymoon, you know, because it's never that but it's you know, it's now our life Right? Like we're weren't nomadic people and we feel much more at home in motion and seeing places and global community Yeah, being a part of a global community and like telling those stories and as I said, like seeing the world differently, even though we're seeing the same place and seeing it differently than other people and kind of sharing and hopefully inspiring other people to get out there and do big trips or see unique places you know, like Slovenia or Bosnia places that you know, are not the Italy's and France's of the world that are you know, pretty easy to promote or the you know, they've got their their tourists so yeah, it's just addictive kind of telling those stories.

Unknown Speaker  26:30  
Yeah, just thinking about so many cars just you know, it's a small country so I think people don't stay long enough they think they can do it the small end like just a few days Oh, my goodness, more than the average was crazy. We were did a 10 days road tripping and potlucks oh my gosh, there's so so so much like we just we didn't have that onward ticket because there was we really were just enjoying the mountains and wanting to take longer hikes and meet you know, more farmers and, and try more of your fabulous restaurants and a left us yearning. For more.

Unknown Speaker  26:59  
We did do a Michelin green star restaurant, which was as vegans was like a very amazing experience and

Unknown Speaker  27:06  
I'm gonna totally butcher the name or costume ghost clean up my heart check. I think it's kind of it's yes, Martin and cash now. Yeah, they've just been in sharing their family for four generations, they've been opening up their home and just hyper local cuisine and we're vegan and audience. I wanted to do like a nine course vegan menu that was that beautiful, that delicious. And then ended in she was like, come on in the kitchen and she taught us how to make these traditionals they dumplings little plum filling and it was just such a special experience and just everything about it was so thoughtful and just robust flavours.

Unknown Speaker  27:44  
Another thing that was like speaking about being flexible and kind of having that unique local experience, we were actually staying at Hotel bohem and and we were supposed to leave I think we were supposed to be there for two nights but the weather was horrible like it was just raining and like Mr. housecall was coming in find that out until like we were like, oh maybe we'll stay she's like oh well if you stay an extra day on the day you leave as the cows ball so then just because of like some bad weather and asking around the you know, we're at some restaurant and we're telling the the waiter like, Oh, we're thinking about staying she's like you totally should the cows fall and we have no idea what's coming up is such

Unknown Speaker  28:20  
a cool Cultural Festival. I mean, just the music and the virtual dress and dancing

Unknown Speaker  28:26  
like 20 people and like the traditional village dress and they'll bring their cows down

Unknown Speaker  28:31  
to set to like the most stunning mountains right? It's basically the triangle National Park, please when you're surrounded by a lake, it was so central.

Unknown Speaker  28:40  
One of the things that I think is great about the country is how it's into hyperlocal and hyperlocal foods foraging that salt traditional here and it's trendy elsewhere people turning to it but here it's just part of part of the culture. So where might you want to visit on your next trip to Slovenia that you haven't been yet what's on your hit list?

Unknown Speaker  28:59  
Well, I want to go find mushrooms with

Unknown Speaker  29:00  
you. And I want to do when we go back if we go back but when we go back is and we cut Pentagon had a great intro course it was it bill. And the sommelier there was so passionate about orange wine. And like it we loved it like we it's like earthy and organic and raw and like just, you know,

Unknown Speaker  29:23  
I liked that it's so unpretentious thing so rich in history and biodynamic wines. And it's kind of took the fuzziness out of you know, proper wine tastings be like No, you like our smokes just like let the wild like let nature do what it wants to do and let the sheep run through the vines.

Unknown Speaker  29:40  
Very these clay pots in the ground and comes out line and it's just so I'd love to go back and do like a proper experience like learn how to make it like see see these things because we tasted it all over the country and it was amazing, but it'd be cool to do a tour of the different wine regions and see the different techniques and kind of how they're bringing it back to that same chair midway and like kind of going their own route different than like the French, you know winemaking techniques, which was pretty cool. Oh my god, how about the speaking of winemaking? What where was the village that we did the EVA existence

Transcribed by https://otter.ai